The release of Bill Hader and Kristen Wiig’s movie The Skeleton Twins marked a transition in both of their careers. Known for their years of writing and performing on Saturday Night Live, both Hader and Wiig were seen as primarily comedic actors generally associated with original characters like Stefon and Penelope, as well as their shared knack for oddball impressions. The Skeleton Twins, released in 2014, allowed Hader and Wiig to move into a different mode of performance: The indie film cast them as estranged twins struggling with what they wanted out of life, each of them confronting unresolved grief and the pain of their suppressed traumas. Directed by Craig Johnson, The Skeleton Twins premiered to critical acclaim at Sundance and became a pivotal point in Hader and Wiig’s post-SNL careers.
Ten years later, Wiig and Hader reunited to discuss their time on SNL and the genesis of The Skeleton Twins at the 2024 Vulture Festival in Los Angeles. Joined by the film’s co-writer and director Craig Johnson, Hader and Wiig recalled the experience of making the film as joyful and rewarding and talked about some of the serendipity behind the film’s breakout lip-syncing scene. Originally designed for the Wilson Phillips song “Hold On,” Johnson realized he’d have to rework the scene after casting Wiig because the song played such a prominent role in Wiig’s 2011 movie Bridesmaids. “Nothing’s Gonna Stop Us Now,” the song they eventually chose, was the only duet Johnson listened to during his search for a replacement, he explained, and the whole concept of the scene came together only weeks before shooting. “Wait, this can be a whole thing!” Johnson recalls thinking. “He can try to get her to sing, and she’ll resist! So now the scene pops off on TikTok.”
Watch the panel in full below, or read on for a transcript of the conversation.
How did you two first meet, and what are your first memories of each other?
Kristen Wiig: You had gotten Saturday Night Live and we had the same manager at the time, and I was about to audition and I called you, right?
Bill Hader: We had the same manager at the time, Naomi Odenkirk. Actually, the first time I met you, I was at Naomi’s house and we were about to go see some Groundlings show, and she goes, “I’m waiting for the babysitter.” The babysitter showed up [points to Kristen].
K.W.: That was me!
B.H.: I was like, “Hi,” you said, “Hi,” and then we just kept moving.
K.W.: He had great advice for me when I auditioned. We talked on the phone and he was so sweet. You hear stories and it’s like, “You just get up there and you have five minutes, and you may not hear anyone laugh, and the lights are on.” But he said that in a very encouraging way! Then I auditioned and I never heard anything. And then the season started, so I figured I didn’t get the job.
B.H.: I started on SNL, and the fifth show in, Kristen came in. I’m like, The babysitter got it? But then I remember I was writing a Vincent Price sketch, and I was like, “Hey, can you do any old-school impressions?” She said, “I can do Judy Garland.” I go, “Oh, what can you say as Judy Garland?” She goes [does Judy Garland impression], “You ever get the feeling that your hands are made out of sand?” I went into Seth Meyers’s office and I was like, “That new girl is amazing.” He was like, “You’re a new guy! What do you mean ‘new girl’?”
K.W.: That’s so funny. I don’t remember that.
B.H.: You said that, and I was like, “Okay, she’s the funniest human on the planet.”
So that was his first impression of you. What was your first impression of him?
K.W.: You watch those early shows and I think there was just a comfortability with him. He’s just one of the best there is.
B.H.: She’s one of the best there is. The thing I always say about Kristen at SNL is, for the seven seasons that we worked together, I can honestly say every table read, 22 shows a season, she did something different, and I’d go, Wait, you can do that too?
K.W.: It didn’t always work!
B.H.: No, she did an Italian guy that was just the funniest thing, and I still do that voice. Any time I find something I like, I go [puts on an exaggerated voice], “Oh yeah!” as this character that she did.
K.W.: Never, never saw the light of day. I was never told, “Please bring it back,” and I just kept bringing it back.
B.H.: It’s my favorite thing! And [puts on a high voice] “Thomas!” That woman. “Thomas!” I can still do it.
K.W.: Oh my God. Again, it was just very comforting! When I got there, I talked to him about how it is to be there, because there’s no guidebook.
B.H.: They don’t tell you anything. I didn’t know where the food was. You go to Lorne Michaels, “Where’s the food?” and he’d go [does Lorne Michaels impression], “Riiight.” I’d go, “Hey, I’m thirsty, can I get something to drink?” and he’d go [does Lorne Michaels impression again], “No, I know.” It was a tough time.
But Kristen and I, we got a shorthand together. I think there’s a thing where you work in that environment for so long and you’ve seen each other eat it so many times — you’ve seen each other hit huge highs and huge lows — that you have each other’s back. So you’re just incredibly comfortable with each other. That’s the thing about this movie: We’re playing siblings, and we have a very sibling relationship in life.
Do you remember the first sketch that you developed either for each other or together?
B.H.: We did this thing called “The Australians” with Fred Armisen that no one liked. I don’t think it ever aired.
K.W.: Even the premise will probably get a groan.
B.H.: We were Australians packing for a trip.
K.W.: And we were just putting Australian things into a bag.
B.H.: “I got one can of Vegemite!”
K.W.: “One DVD of Muriel’s Wedding!”
B.H.: “Here’s one Hugh Jackman doll!” “One pouch of kangaroo doo-doo!” “One huge diorama of the Sydney Opera House!”
K.W.: That was the entire sketch — putting items into a suitcase and then we zipped it closed and then we’d say, “All right, we’re off to New Zealand!” And then the credits ran —
B.H.: Upside-down —
K.W.: And backwards for like a good minute.
B.H.: To the sound of a didgeridoo.
And the sketch played to such silence that I remember I could hear the props rustling. I could hear Kristen breathing.
K.W.: “Hollywood Dish” was another one.
B.H.: Where I would spit stuff in Kristen’s face.
What I remember about watching “Hollywood Dish” is that I knew, at some point, something was gonna end up in Kristen’s hair. And then it was just a matter of watching both of you try not to laugh as you anticipated the fact that that moment would be coming.
B.H.: One time I spit a Slurpee, and it was really cold, and I heard her go [makes shuddering noise]. And I started laughing. She has to wipe her head — and she already has a bowl on her head, so she has to lift it up. I used to do this character Herb Welch, who’d hit people with the microphone. One time, I had to hit Kristen in the crotch with a microphone, and I hit her in the crotch and she went, “Mmm!” I broke then, too.
K.W.: I think there’s a looseness with when we would do sketches together. We don’t really get to improvise when we’re doing sketches; it’s pretty much reading what’s on the card. But I think there is something … silly is the word that’s coming to mind. Even with “The Californians,” when I know he’s gonna make me laugh, but I also know he’s gonna do something different than he did in all the rehearsals and at dress. I think the audience, even though they’re seeing it for the first time, they know that, too.
B.H.: Kristen, I remember the first time on-air, she said, “We can’t go then! It’ll be jammed!”
K.W.: Or when Fred would say, “What are you doing here?” From the table to rehearsal to air, it got longer every time.
Who developed “The Californians”?
B.H.: It was Fred and James Anderson, based on a bit that I remember we’d do at the table when everybody would go, “Hey, Kenan, were you just in L.A.?” “Yeah!” “Well, how did you get to your meetings?” “Well, I took the 405 to the 101, blah blah blah …” Because when you go to L.A., that’s all people do.
Did “Californians” come together quickly once you decided to make it a sketch, or did it take a while to figure out who these people are and how you would add a soap layer to it?
K.W.: You really don’t get much time. You read the sketches a couple hours before you do the table read, and the writers and Fred will just say, “Hey, this is kind of the vibe, talk sort of like this.” And then you show up.
B.H.: He came to me and he was like, “It’s the San Pedro guys,” because we used to talk like San Pedro guys. We’re big fans of the band the Minutemen, and we’d just go, “Dude, I was just in Pedro, man!”
Kristen, are there qualities of Bill that you like to write to? Things that you know he can do?
K.W.: He can do anything. There’s people who, when you are writing a sketch, you know this person will just kill it. Or if I’m not sure if I’m writing a funny line, I give it to Bill, and he’ll make it funny. You can always count on that. I think we had such a sweet spot with the cast that we had. You could just sort of kick the ball to anyone. You have a special bond with the people that you go in with, because you feel like you’re starting this crazy school and you’re freshmen. That was me and Bill and Andy Samberg and Jason Sudeikis. That bond will always be there.
B.H.: That’s crazy that it’s the four of us. Everybody’s gone on to have their own show. I’m like, how fucking lucky I came in with those three, you know?
So as you’re moving through SNL, both of you do comedy movies: big, funnier, more comedic movies than get to be made now, I think. But both of you are then exiting or about to exit SNL. How does Skeleton Twins come to you?
B.H.: I did this table read for a casting director, and it was Kate Winslet, Bradley Cooper, Greta Gerwig, and Paul Dano. And then me. They’re going, “What the fuck are you doing here?” And I was like, “I know!” Then months later, the casting director said, “Hey, I have this script. I’m casting this movie, it’s a drama with some comedy in it. Would you read it?” I read it and immediately was like, “Yeah, please. Sign me up.” And then from that point, it was a year or two until we got Kristen.
So you were working with the director Craig Johnson, who we are lucky enough to have here with us.
B.H.: How long was it until Kristen came on?
Craig Johnson: Like a year and a half or so. Honestly, we had another actor attached who then ended up not being able to do it.
K.W.: What!? [Laughs.] I knew that.
C.J.: Bridesmaids had just taken over the world, and I immediately zeroed in on Kristen and thought, Oh God, the synergy of Saturday Night Live. My God, this would be ideal. And I remember you guys had the same agent, as well as the same manager. And they were really excited about you, Bill, doing this movie. I was like, “Hey, guys, if you really want this movie to happen — Kristen Wiig!”
B.H.: They saw how much money Bridesmaids made and they were just like, “Mmm, yes!”
C.J.: At first they said, “Craig, she’s getting offered every giant studio thing.”
K.W.: Which was not true!
B.H.: She just got offered Batman.
K.W.: That was true.
B.H.: “Hi, I’m Batman! We’re out of wine!”
K.W.: Is that your impression of me?
B.H.: No! My impression of you is that you’re always cold.
K.W.: I am always cold.
Sorry, Craig! This is what it was like every day on set. I’m surprised we got anything done. Okay, go ahead.
C.J.: They told me that they offered her Batman, she didn’t want to do it, she wants to do The Skeleton Twins. They said, “This is what she actually wants to do.” You read it and you wanted to meet me, and I remember it was one of those lunches where we talked about all kinds of things except for the movie. I remember leaving and being like, “Hey, Kristen, does this maybe seem like something you want to do?” You were like, “Oh yeah, I’d love to do it, but only if Bill wants to do it with me.” I realized I hadn’t actually confirmed with Bill. I figured he would, but that night I was at dinner with you, Bill, and you were like, “So how did it go?” I said, “She wants to do it, but only if you want to do it with her.” You were like, “Why wouldn’t I want to do it with her?” And then I kind of was like, “Oh gosh, we might make this little movie!” And we did.
B.H.: I will say outside of my own project that I did, this is the best experience I had had doing anything, even SNL, because it was so intimate and small. It was low-budget and we had no trailers. There’s a scene where we’re going out for Halloween, and we had to get dressed in a Starbucks bathroom. Remember? All the people see me go in and then come out, like “hey!” It was amazing.
C.J.: It was like we were all going to film camp and you guys knew the assignment, as did Luke Wilson and Ty Burrell. Everyone else was just like, “Let’s do this thing and just play in this little sandbox for a little while.”
K.W.: Bill and I had obviously done so much comedic stuff together, but I had never felt more bonded with another actor. We had to really go places. I don’t want that to sound actor-y —
No, it’s a heavy movie.
K.W.: It was, and we were nervous. There was one scene,which I’ll never forget, it’s burned into my brain. We were in the backyard, and it’s when I said something horrible.
B.H.: “You should have cut deeper.”
K.W.: And you yelled “cut,” and we just started crying. I felt bad that I said that. I think the whole experience of it, and playing siblings, and doing things we had never done before, there was just a connection that I felt with Bill ever since.
Can you talk a little bit about why this was the kind of movie you wanted to make? Both of you, it sounds like, were thinking about what you wanted to do at that specific moment in your careers.
B.H.: I don’t know. It’s like trying to describe why you fell in love with somebody. You read something and you go, “Oh yeah, that.” But I don’t know why, it just happened, you know?
Were you scared of the kind of acting that it was going to entail — because something that dramatic was not something you guys had really done, certainly of that length?
K.W.: I was scared after we were wrapped. I was like, Oh God, what did I do? Was that okay? Because there is a conversation that happens where someone does something they don’t normally do. It’s like, “Can they do it?” We were obviously known for doing SNL and movies that were comedic, and so I personally was just a little nervous about how this drama was going to be received.
B.H.: It happens sometimes where you have a good time on a project and then it just gets annihilated. And then that thing you hated doing … people will come up to you for that, going, “Will you sign this?” “That was the worst six months of my life! My marriage fell apart! Come on, I don’t want to look at that!” But no, with Skeleton Twins, I was like, “Man, I’m so excited I got to do that. This is great, this is awesome.” And then it was the morning of the Sundance screening. I had a total, complete panic attack. Couldn’t leave my hotel room. Eventually, I went across the street, and I sat at some restaurant in Park City, and just looked at my phone. I remember my wife at the time, Maggie Carey, wrote to me from inside the theater, “They’re loving it.” And then she went, “Oh my God, the lip-sync scene just got a massive applause break.”
I do want to talk about the lip-sync scene.
B.H.: Craig Johnson. Everything you see, he walked us through every beat of that. “Go over to the piano, then you do this, then you pull the …”
K.W.: The entire thing.
C.J.: They’re being modest. We figured it out together.
Was it always going to be this song?
C.J.: It was not. The scene was not supposed to be that epic, either. It was like, two sentences in the script that said, “She’s pissed off at him. He lip-syncs a song to cheer her up.” And in the script, the song was “Hold On,” by Wilson Phillips. And in Bridesmaids, if you all remember, that song factors prominently. So I think Kristen even said, as we were initially talking, “We’re gonna change that song, right?” But not until a few weeks before shooting did I have the new song. I knew I wanted this sort of cheesy song, a kind of ’80s jam that everybody would start singing along if they were alone in their car. I was listening to all kinds of everything: Debbie Gibson and Tiffany. Nothing was quite right. And then when I rediscovered “Nothing’s Gonna Stop Us Now,” by Starship. It was the only duet I listened to. So that whole concept of him trying to get her to sing the Grace Slick part happened like two weeks before we shot it. I was like, Wait, this can be a whole thing! He can try to get her to sing and she’ll resist and then she’ll sing along! So now the scene pops off on TikTok.
B.H.: [Does Australian accent] “Good job, Craig!”
K.W.: [Also does Australian accent] “Great!”
The Australians are back.
K.W.: We’re never gonna go away till the movie comes out. Two hours of us packing.
B.H.: The thing I remember about the lip-sync scene was when we did it, we had so much fun, and — correct me if I’m wrong about this, Craig — I remember being like, We’re done for the night! And then they go, “Uh, Bill, the schedule. We gotta shoot the scene where you come home drunk after you commit suicide and you talk about the guy and MySpace.”
C.J.: Oh yeah, you’re right.
B.H.: And I am still sweating from dancing. I was like, “Uhhhh, okay.” But Craig did an amazing thing. I hadn’t looked at the scene, and it was like a two-page-long thing or something. So I went outside and I was reading it and walking around and trying not to freak out. And then a PA came up to me and said, “Hey, they’re ready.” I remember walking in, and it was super quiet and everybody was there, and Kristen was there, and it was so respectful. He was that in tune with me as a director to go, “Okay, you know what? Let him have his space, let him calm down, and then we’ll bring him in and try to change the energy in here.” I will always be thankful for that.
So the movie comes out. You were obviously worried about what the reaction was gonna be and it has become this incredibly well-loved, embraced thing. Did it change what you wanted to be doing in your careers?
B.H.: This movie factored hugely in me being able to do Barry. You get done with SNL and they send you on all these meetings and everybody’s like, “So we want to do a character doing this,” and it’s always kind of sketchy. But HBO was a place where they were like, “We saw Skeleton Twins, and we really liked your work in that. We’d like to see something like that. There’s this guy, Alec Berg. Alec, you watch Skeleton Twins.” Alec came to the premiere of Skeleton Twins because HBO was like, “You gotta go see this movie and look at his work. He’s not just an impressions guy.” Alec came out and was like, “Wow, okay, all right!” There’s no way Barry would have happened if it was not for this movie.
I’m curious, both of you are such physical performers, and it is so unusual to have performers who can do that kind of physical work and then also do the work of being a writer where you sit in a room and think. How do you translate between those two things? Are they completely different muscles?
B.H.: I was not a good sketch writer.
K.W.: That is not true.
B.H.: No, I would always need John Mulaney or Simon Rich or somebody to go off of. Kristen would go into a room and come out, and I remember asking you, I was like, “How do you write the thing like Target Lady? How do you do Penelope?” When I was at the show, if you went down into the NBC store, they had an SNL section, and every piece of merchandise was one of her characters.
K.W.: That’s not true.
C.J.: Now, Bill, I have seen a Stefon Christmas ornament.
B.H.: That was one character. Yeah, but you know what I mean?
K.W.: You write a lot more now.
B.H.: Yes, I write pretty much every day now. With Barry or something like that, it was always trying to get the story right. And then I think because of SNL and our improv-sketch background, I was like, “I’ll find my way into the emotions.” The hard part of writing is just the day-to-day grind of, This makes no sense.
What are your worst habits as writers?
K.W.: Not doing it.
B.H.: I’ve watched every episode of the show Snapped.
K.W.: That’s what you’re watching?
B.H.: I love women killing men. And it’s so regional!
And you’re a Bravo person, Kristen?
K.W.: I am a Bravo person and I am not ashamed. But I have two kids, so I don’t really watch that much anymore.
B.H.: But yeah, not doing the writing. You have to force yourself to do it. I write it on a Post-it note and I put it on my computer: “Write from this time to this time,” and there’ll be days, weeks, where I just sit there.
K.W.: And second-guess yourself. Because I’ll have something in my head where I’m like, Ooh, I gotta write that down, and then I start writing it and I’m like, This is terrible! And you gotta keep going, because there were things that I’ve written and that I’ve done, and I always thought it was terrible. You just can’t see it, or you feel like, Maybe this isn’t enough. Maybe my voice isn’t right.
B.H.: You’re one of the funniest writers. Barb and Star? Come on. That got me through the pandemic.
K.W.: Thank you very much, but let’s talk about Barry! Is it weird to say I’m proud of you?
B.H.: No, you can say I’m proud of you! I’m proud of you! How many pictures did I send of the Palm Royale thing to you? I always take pictures and send them to her like, “Look, your billboard’s over La Cienega!”
Related
