In 2014, a game of ping-pong at work lost Miles Schwartz his internship at Salesforce. Now, he wants to give staff more freedom at his own company.
Joseph Martorana
This as-told-to essay is based on a transcribed conversation with Miles Schwartz, 33, from Montreal. Schwartz was briefly employed at Salesforce as an intern and later cofounded his own company. The following has been edited for length and clarity.
I was never the best student. Anything with a lot of structure always gave me anxiety, but I thought I would thrive in business when I finished school.
After studying marketing at Concordia University, I started an internship at Salesforce. After six weeks, I was escorted out of the building after playing ping-pong outside my lunch hour.
The structured environment of a 9-to-5 job didn't allow me to thrive. I've since cofounded my own company and don't watch over employee's shoulders. It's important to give people freedom in how they work.
I started my internship at Salesforce in September 2014 in their Toronto office.
I really didn't like the experience. I thought I'd be on business calls, schmoozing people, and going to conferences, but as a business development intern, I was mainly doing data entry and finding contacts.
As a people person, I felt out of my element. I felt like the outcast for not enjoying it. Everyone else seemed to love it there. They didn't overwork people, they compensated people properly, and there were easy paths to promotion.
I felt homesick. Going for a beer after work was part of the culture, but I'm really into health and fitness. I prefer to do my own thing after work, like running or the gym.
My hours were meant to be 9-to-5. I remember once, after staying very late the previous day, I turned up at 9:15 a.m., and my manager came up to me and said, "You do realize work starts at 9?" It made me think optics really mattered there.
The internship was meant to last four months, leading to a permanent role at the company.
One day, six weeks in, I was feeling foggy and tired. I had already taken my hourlong lunch break, but later in the day, a more senior colleague asked if I wanted to play ping-pong in the office with him.
We played for at least 30 minutes, and I was back at my desk within an hour. I intended to stay late that evening to make up for the lost time.
When I got back, my manager told me I couldn't disappear in the middle of the day, especially as an intern, and that this wasn't a good look if I wanted to get promoted at the company.
I explained I often stayed late to finish my work, but she told me the job was 9-to-5. I felt Salesforce didn't want entry-level employees to work their own hours or do things their own way.
I told her I didn't want to get promoted. I wanted to finish the internship and leave. However, my manager politely said I shouldn't stay at all, so security came, took my computer and badge, and escorted me out of the building.
I had no hard feelings about it. Why would they spend their energy teaching me about the company if I had no desire to be there?
I thrive in an environment where I can listen to my body and step away from work for a short while if needed. In a flow state, I can work a 13-hour day, and it's smooth sailing, but some days, you just don't have it. That day at Salesforce, I just didn't have it. I wanted to play ping-pong and clear my head.
It reinforced that I didn't thrive in structure, but I started to worry I wouldn't find a workplace where I belonged.
I tried another sales job, working for a friend's uncle, but I only lasted a few weeks because I didn't enjoy making 90 cold calls a day and getting hung up on.
I took a break from corporate work and started modeling to make money. Eventually, I arranged meetings with startups, but none felt like a natural fit until I landed an interview with Flinks, a fintech startup, in April 2017. They offered me a role as the director of business development.
I was nervous I was going to fail. The weekend before I started, I asked one of the founders a few questions, including where he wanted me to work from and what companies I should reach out to initially. He responded, "Why the hell are you asking me? You're in charge."
The second he said that, I knew this was exactly the opportunity I was looking for. The freedom to do whatever I wanted motivated me. In a corporate job, I hated being made to do 90 cold calls a day, but I started doing 200 cold calls a day on my own.
Over time, I started to build a network and speak at conferences for the company. After a year, I became the chief sales officer. During my time there, Flinks became one of the fastest-growing fintechs in Canada.
I left Flinks in 2019 and cofounded my own company, Zūm Rails.
I work extremely hard, probably close to 50 hours a week, but never overwork to the point of exhaustion.
Nowadays, I can walk my dog in the mountains during the day if I want to and reply to emails in the evening when I'm back.
My cofounder and I aren't watching over people's shoulders at Zūm Rails.
Our hours are meant to be 9-to-5, but I think our culture is more mission-driven, and people aren't watching the clock. We hire talented specialists who all want to succeed.
We do have to have some structure to operate in a remote world as a team of over 50 people. For example, sales development representatives ensure all call notes are updated in the CRM before handing over to an account manager.
But I don't micromanage how people get their jobs done. I remember finding it weird when a senior employee asked me if they could go to a doctor's appointment in the afternoon.
Our employees have the freedom to work from wherever they feel they will perform at their best, whether it's from a coworking space, an office, or their house, as long as the work gets done to the expected standard.
Giving people the freedom to work the way they want to helps boost output.
Salesforce did not respond to a comment request from Business Insider.
